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Post by spinifex on Oct 31, 2017 17:49:50 GMT 10
I live near a grain exporting port in rural South Aus. Sometimes, I look at the bulk carriers loading grain at the wharf and wonder ... In the extraordinarily unlikely scenario of having to evacuate my Dig-In location, region and Nation ... would it be desirable and feasible to commandeer a bulk carrier full of grain and live on it for a few years? The port here has the ability to fuel up ships so it would be possible to fill the tanks before getting under way.
Not a lone venture of course ... but an opportunity to get seriously 'out of the way' with a good sized group.
What would such a group need to bring with it to get by? How big a group would you run with? Where do you head for to find a good anchorage?
Anyone else ever ponder this kind of thing?
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Post by spinifex on Oct 31, 2017 19:49:06 GMT 10
You know how to drive one of those things? Nup. Can't read a nav chart either. Would have to ask the Ships captain (in my dodgy Spanish) to be part of the deal. Plan 'B' to retain services of said captain might involve more stick and less carrot. It's all very much a highly impractical daydream scenario really ... and yet it has some historic precedent during WW2. Shiploads of stateless refugees trying to stay out of the way of oppressive regimes running organised 'cleansing' activities. With all the grain on board it becomes feasible to sustain livestock, ferment alcohol, manufacture compost to grow plants on board. With a bit of basic milling equipment there's plenty of bread to be made.
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Nov 1, 2017 16:36:21 GMT 10
It is the kind of idea that could work with lots of planning and a bit of luck to be able to get a loaded barge when things go pear shaped. I would rather look at commandeering an ocean going yacht. One thing to consider taking with is a few wheat grinders as you will be making bread every day.....
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Nov 1, 2017 18:46:02 GMT 10
I don't think I'd want to get involved in anything along these lines that wasn't an 'inside job'. Those things are far too big and complicated for my liking...
I have however spent far too much time contemplating a small container barge done up as a retreat. I'm a little obsessed with shipping container houses and I saw one once that was built on a small container barge that was built out of 4 shipping containers, it was arranged in a way that looked completely natural... yet contained a complete house within.
It's a daydream of course, I don't see it as ever happening... but one can dream.
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Post by spinifex on Nov 1, 2017 19:56:36 GMT 10
I don't think I'd want to get involved in anything along these lines that wasn't an 'inside job'. Those things are far too big and complicated for my liking... I have however spent far too much time contemplating a small container barge done up as a retreat. I'm a little obsessed with shipping container houses and I saw one once that was built on a small container barge that was built out of 4 shipping containers, it was arranged in a way that looked completely natural... yet contained a complete house within. It's a daydream of course, I don't see it as ever happening... but one can dream. Indeed one can dream. It's good for our creativity. Even if we can't bring a dream to fruition immediately ... you never know when things may change and an opportunity to go Nike on your dreams presents itself.
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Post by frontsight on Nov 1, 2017 22:11:43 GMT 10
So we are basically talking taking part in piracy. Don't pirates know how to sail? Otherwise you will have to do like the Somali Pirates, RPG and AK47.... And Somali pirates have land based strong hold, they don't have to rely on co-existing with the captives for very long. I think the only way to get on is to be of value and earn you keep. So if you are a doctor/nurse/certain tradie/vet/dentist/brewer/chef/solider/prostitute (yes, since we are talking about piracy, trading sex for service is actually relatively mild from a moral standpoint) you should be fine. And you may not make very far, I will bet if society has totally collapsed, hungry ex naval ships will eat your ship for breakfast. I do think stealing a small fishing vessel may be more feasible. I have problems with my morals too but it may change when I get hungry. Another thing is for this to work, you need to do it during early stage of SHTF and there is a very high chance of S not HTF bad enough and the world recovers, you will the one who lands up in jail.....
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Post by spinifex on Nov 3, 2017 18:28:20 GMT 10
One mans 'piracy' is another mans 'requisitioning'.
Wouldn't dream of requisitioning a fishing vessel. They are owned by family businesses ... however international shipping is owned by billionares residing in tax havens. I think they can afford the loss. I've met enough ship crew to form the opinion they'd go along with anything if you offer the right kind of deal. They're quite adventurous.
With 60 000 ton of grain on board we'd be giving grain away to any ex naval vessel who wants it. How many such vessels would be lurking around the Southern coast of Oz is a bit of a gray area.
As for jail ... well, this is a venture involving hundreds; not interested in acquiring a freighter to shift a tiny group ... so ... plenty of company!
I think a big problem would be there'd be no ships in port if things got to the point of needing one.
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Post by Peter on Nov 3, 2017 22:32:32 GMT 10
... I've met enough ship crew to form the opinion they'd go along with anything if you offer the right kind of deal. They're quite adventurous... Hypothetically then, if one could acquire such a well-stocked ship, it would be a useful bargaining tool for use with others... For example, a military ship could provide security in exchange for the food on your own grain ship. Or one could recruit a crew of sailors - just like in the pirate movies. Both are fine theories. They are also more likely able to control such a vessel on the open seas. Why would they keep you around? What could you offer them? A ship that they - as an armed and trained group, or even just as a group familiar with ships - could take from you in seconds/minutes/hours? An individual (or even a small group) wouldn't be able to hold them off for very long. Unless you have some specific expertise. I doubt anyone here is like Tommy Lee Jones in Under Siege - that is, able to commandeer a vessel using extensive military training. I fear the risk of failure far outweighs the potential rewards. Although desperate times call for desperate measures...
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Nov 4, 2017 10:37:23 GMT 10
... I've met enough ship crew to form the opinion they'd go along with anything if you offer the right kind of deal. They're quite adventurous... Hypothetically then, if one could acquire such a well-stocked ship, it would be a useful bargaining tool for use with others... For example, a military ship could provide security in exchange for the food on your own grain ship. Or one could recruit a crew of sailors - just like in the pirate movies. Both are fine theories. They are also more likely able to control such a vessel on the open seas. Why would they keep you around? What could you offer them? A ship that they - as an armed and trained group, or even just as a group familiar with ships - could take from you in seconds/minutes/hours? An individual (or even a small group) wouldn't be able to hold them off for very long. Unless you have some specific expertise. I doubt anyone here is like Tommy Lee Jones in Under Siege - that is, able to commandeer a vessel using extensive military training. I fear the risk of failure far outweighs the potential rewards. Although desperate times call for desperate measures... How many oil tankers and other large bulk container ships have been held hostage by like 4-5 Somali pirates and have got paid out tens of millions of dollars in ransom. It is doable - but I don't think a wise idea.
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Post by Peter on Nov 4, 2017 19:37:07 GMT 10
Agreed - it *may* be doable, but way too many variables exist. Unless it's the last glimmer of hope WTSHTF I'd look for other options.
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Post by frontsight on Nov 5, 2017 8:57:37 GMT 10
I am also of the view that any small group that is capable of taking over the ship is capable of surviving well on land. Who do you think will survive better if you dump them in the middle of SHTF location? Somali pirates or equal number in your group. The Somalis are living in STHF world already, those are the one who have made it, well seasoned.
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Post by spinifex on Nov 6, 2017 18:57:27 GMT 10
... I've met enough ship crew to form the opinion they'd go along with anything if you offer the right kind of deal. They're quite adventurous... Hypothetically then, if one could acquire such a well-stocked ship, it would be a useful bargaining tool for use with others... For example, a military ship could provide security in exchange for the food on your own grain ship. Or one could recruit a crew of sailors - just like in the pirate movies. Both are fine theories. They are also more likely able to control such a vessel on the open seas. Why would they keep you around? What could you offer them? A ship that they - as an armed and trained group, or even just as a group familiar with ships - could take from you in seconds/minutes/hours? An individual (or even a small group) wouldn't be able to hold them off for very long. Unless you have some specific expertise. I doubt anyone here is like Tommy Lee Jones in Under Siege - that is, able to commandeer a vessel using extensive military training. I fear the risk of failure far outweighs the potential rewards. Although desperate times call for desperate measures... It's certainly at the bottom of the list of contingencies. No doubt about that. My experience of freighter crews is they're easy going. They'd have little to gain going up against a large number of people piling aboard and little reason to object if the group arrives with plenty of gratuities. Not every situation ends with a violent confrontation and or some kind of 'power struggle' (admittedly it doesn't always end in cooperation either.) As for military ships taking over ... why would they? Why would we need to assume that such a meeting would conclude in violent confrontation? My experience of grim situations leads me to believe people prefer to get along if possible.
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Post by spinifex on Nov 6, 2017 19:10:56 GMT 10
I am also of the view that any small group that is capable of taking over the ship is capable of surviving well on land. Who do you think will survive better if you dump them in the middle of SHTF location? Somali pirates or equal number in your group. The Somalis are living in STHF world already, those are the one who have made it, well seasoned. No Somalis in the Southern Ocean. And the group taking the ship would definitely not be small. It'd be in the hundreds. I'm talking a possible last resort need to get out of Oz and make for the west coast of North or South America or some place in between. Definitely buggered if a warship captained by a murderous psychopath hunts us down. But I think they're rare outside of the movies.
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fei
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Post by fei on Nov 11, 2017 14:20:36 GMT 10
I dunno about a grain ship (mutiny anyone?), but taking over a full grain silo or food processing plant (ie. cannery) in a regional area might be the way to go.
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Post by spinifex on Nov 12, 2017 15:21:05 GMT 10
Yep. In rural SA we have many 4 and 6 cell concrete silos on rail sidings in/near small towns that I imagine would make excellent fortresses. In my region we have some that aren't even in or near towns ... just placed on rail sidings sitting at strategic road crossings. I assume its the same in other states?
The ship idea is much more in the case that one might need to get completely out of the country.
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Nov 12, 2017 17:45:22 GMT 10
One of the key problems with this is at the very start
The ports themselves
For a good sized ship to be docked you need a good sized port and any good sized port will most likely be the last place you want to go near in the event of a collapse for a couple of reasons I will briefly list them below
Ports are vital infrastructure any remnants of the former governance or authority will try and maintain control of ports just like an invading force would for the movement of equipment , resources and people. just like airports are critical infrastructure so are ports so you may find yourself encountering some very hostile well armed security forces that wont like you on their turf
Ports are used for evacuation people you may find that ports are overflowing with internally displaced people that were sent there by the former government to be evacuated to either another country or part of the country Imagine the situation if you come across a port filled with hundreds or thousands of hungry desperate people who were abandoned by the government when it all fell apart this could be very dangerous for you and your group
Ships and their crews are mostly a loyal bunch you might find that the crews of any nearby ships have joined together in a flotilla to protect each other as they try to make their way home to their families and this would pose a big problem because the people you would need to run the ships might of already gone with another ship and the only ships left are the ones with no fuel or no crew or simply not sea worthy in a world gone mad I would probably expect to find that ships would join up and basically load up and steam on homewards to their country of origin loaded up with as many supplies and fuel as they could load plus a few local girls for entertainment
from historical research I would be very wary about going near any major transport hub be it a train station , sea port , airport or even a major truck deport where trains unload none of this though is to say you wont find a sympathetic crew that wants to help people and is willing to help evacuate others its just not as likely as other situations you would be more probable to encounter
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Post by SA Hunter on Nov 12, 2017 21:08:23 GMT 10
Just my 2 bobs worth, I'd rather go to a silo, and fill up some bags etc with grain, go home, mill, then make bread. To take over a large grain vessel is a big ask - though the idea behind it is worth contemplating.
In a shtf situation, how many would realistically even think of going to a silo/ports etc for grain??
I had never contemplated this before, so thanks - another plan to add to my list of ideas and plans.
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Post by spinifex on Nov 13, 2017 17:05:30 GMT 10
Just my 2 bobs worth, I'd rather go to a silo, and fill up some bags etc with grain, go home, mill, then make bread. To take over a large grain vessel is a big ask - though the idea behind it is worth contemplating. In a shtf situation, how many would realistically even think of going to a silo/ports etc for grain?? I had never contemplated this before, so thanks - another plan to add to my list of ideas and plans. We're both very well situated here on EP. With such a huge amount of agriculture/fishing coupled with such a small population and long distance to very large cities ... it would take special effort to go hungry here even under the harshest SHTF conditions. You ever contemplated how many hundreds of thousands of tons of grain are piled up at Tumby? We also have 1.5 million sheep in our region and only about 40 000 people.
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Post by SA Hunter on Nov 13, 2017 18:24:21 GMT 10
Plus it helps to have mates who are farmers too!!
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