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Post by SA Hunter on Nov 17, 2020 7:45:09 GMT 10
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Post by spinifex on Nov 17, 2020 17:45:27 GMT 10
This kind of thing happens in every war. Historically only the 'losers' have any cases to answer.
Perhaps this is a sign Australia won nothing in Afstan.
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Nov 17, 2020 18:19:39 GMT 10
The Taliban don't have any rules of engagement.
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australia
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Post by australia on Nov 17, 2020 18:38:11 GMT 10
The SASR have undergone quite a few changes in the last 2 years to prepare for this report ..
After the report comes out we will see massive fallout regarding a few prominent SASR members .
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Nov 17, 2020 19:00:58 GMT 10
A tarnished VC hero perhaps.
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Post by SA Hunter on Nov 17, 2020 20:55:10 GMT 10
A tarnished VC hero perhaps. A VC hero is always a VC hero. And yes, rules for one side in a war, none for the other side. Shoot up your patrol, then hands up " I surrender - now treat me according to Geneva Convention". No wonder they were angry! Also, I'm guessing some of the report will be censored, so we really won't hear the whole story, probably only what the media will tell to tarnish the SAS. I'll shut up now - I may have to ban myself.
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Nov 19, 2020 15:37:18 GMT 10
2squadron SAS are gone. When you've got Afghan civilians reporting execution of non combatants, and SAS whistleblowers supporting those reports, clear video footage of non combatants being executed, the media baying for their blood and the PM forced into a corner (or 4 Corners, as it were), then you've got troops in a whole load of legal trouble.
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Post by SA Hunter on Nov 19, 2020 17:48:18 GMT 10
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Nov 20, 2020 6:56:43 GMT 10
At least 8 diggers died in the last 3 weeks, from wounds received whilst serving. Where's the media outcry?
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norseman
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Post by norseman on Nov 20, 2020 7:03:52 GMT 10
At least 8 diggers died in the last 3 weeks, from wounds received whilst serving. Where's the media outcry? You won't hear much from the Commie News Media on that one!
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Post by spinifex on Nov 20, 2020 7:31:55 GMT 10
At least 8 diggers died in the last 3 weeks, from wounds received whilst serving. Where's the media outcry? An important question being ... who or what are our troops serving and being killed and maimed for? What have their deaths contributed towards for us as a nation? There won't even be any enduring change for Afghans. Can't play the 'fought for our freedom' card for this one. 'Save us from the big, bad, scary tewowists?' - In the same way the Vietnam war saved us from the communist peril? The communist peril that turned Vietnam into an Aussie holiday destination and source of cheap imported prawns and clothing for Aussie consumers? ... and then we wonder why, and get offended when our people start 'acting out' and sketching outside the lines?
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Nov 20, 2020 7:44:50 GMT 10
First thing I asked my daughter when she told me she'd put her hand up for Afghan was 'why, our mission there is farked?'
3 diggers from her base were killed that deployment, in a green on blue shooting. What a waste.
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Post by spinifex on Nov 20, 2020 7:56:34 GMT 10
A sensible question for a parent to ask!
And what did she reply?
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Nov 20, 2020 8:02:59 GMT 10
A sensible question for a parent to ask! And what did she reply? She said she was going there for her mates, that she couldn't let them down. Wanted to do the best she could for them. I couldn't argue with that. So I told her not to trust anyone not wearing auscam. She asked what I mean't by that, so I told her afghans were a tribal culture with flexible allegiances. How prophetic. I was at the coming home ceremony at Enoggera, was very poignant with the 3 from that base killed. Luckily my little girl was deployed to Timor instead, but that wasn't a walk in the park, she spent a lot of time in the jungle.
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Beno
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Post by Beno on Nov 20, 2020 20:47:09 GMT 10
I've read through a fair bit of this report. Holy moley this is pretty sad stuff. I don't know what to think yet so dot points will have to do.
1. The SASR and commando units are going to go through some serious reform. It has to after this but i can’t help but feel the aftermath will be a pussified version of what it was before the rot was set in. Maybe the rot was always there bit i’d like to think it was not.
2. there is a big emphasis on the conduct of patrol commanders and rightly so. However how do we scrutinise Aussie involvement in all these useless wars? In my opinion the only war we needed to fight was the war in the pacific against the japs and Timor. All others involved diggers being the lapdog of more powerful countries. Afghanistan was an unwinnable war from the onset so why no enquiry into political conduct leading Australia to unsubstantiated wars?
3. The report suggests the overall power of the NCO. Dangerous stuff when left unattended. These nco’s were responsible for SAS selection How many good soldiers missed oit cause they did not meet some of the sicko unwritten prerequisites?
4. The term operator and other jargon seem to be used to put these lads on a pedestal. They are soldiers on government dime.
5. The process of so called “blooding” by killing a pow is actually a pussies way of getting their first kill. It must have damaged a lot of good blokes beyond repair.
6. 2 blokes as witnesses seems to have kicked this off. There is a lot of unsubstantiated tuff out there and some units have gone into secret squirrel mode.
7. One of the most recent VC recipients could be in the crap. He will likely have some of his awards withdrawn whether he was involved or not. Certain rotations will see all patrol commanders lose their distinguished service medals.
8. The report had a weird format. There was a big slab on historical context to Australian war crimes in the past. This tried to demonstrate or report on the cultural progression of war rules as well as how this stuff ADF began in the first place. I thought this part was really poorly constructed.
9. By doing this, some units were likely worse than the taliban in they eyes of the locals. It appears some Aussie units were the terrorists.
10. I learned a lot about rules of engagement and the whole sh!tload of rules and regs. We risked all our reputation on fighting a BS war against goat herders and mountain men. We lost. How the fark could anyone wage a real war with all that crap to consider?Oh hang on let's not go there in the first place, that would be a good start.
That’s all i got for now.
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Nov 20, 2020 21:27:28 GMT 10
7: I met the big fella at Dawn Service in Canberra a couple of years ago. He is huge when you stand next to him. There have been whispers for a while, his pedestal is high, he has a long way to fall. I hope this report doesn't tarnish the well deserved reputation of the rest of the ADF.
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norseman
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Post by norseman on Nov 21, 2020 11:07:39 GMT 10
I've read through a fair bit of this report. Holy moley this is pretty sad stuff. I don't know what to think yet so dot points will have to do. 1. The SASR and commando units are going to go through some serious reform. It has to after this but i can’t help but feel the aftermath will be a pussified version of what it was before the rot was set in. Maybe the rot was always there bit i’d like to think it was not. 2. there is a big emphasis on the conduct of patrol commanders and rightly so. However how do we scrutinise Aussie involvement in all these useless wars? In my opinion the only war we needed to fight was the war in the pacific against the japs and Timor. All others involved diggers being the lapdog of more powerful countries. Afghanistan was an unwinnable war from the onset so why no enquiry into political conduct leading Australia to unsubstantiated wars? 3. The report suggests the overall power of the NCO. Dangerous stuff when left unattended. These nco’s were responsible for SAS selection How many good soldiers missed oit cause they did not meet some of the sicko unwritten prerequisites? 4. The term operator and other jargon seem to be used to put these lads on a pedestal. They are soldiers on government dime. 5. The process of so called “blooding” by killing a pow is actually a pussies way of getting their first kill. It must have damaged a lot of good blokes beyond repair. 6. 2 blokes as witnesses seems to have kicked this off. There is a lot of unsubstantiated tuff out there and some units have gone into secret squirrel mode. 7. One of the most recent VC recipients could be in the crap. He will likely have some of his awards withdrawn whether he was involved or not. Certain rotations will see all patrol commanders lose their distinguished service medals. 8. The report had a weird format. There was a big slab on historical context to Australian war crimes in the past. This tried to demonstrate or report on the cultural progression of war rules as well as how this stuff ADF began in the first place. I thought this part was really poorly constructed. 9. By doing this, some units were likely worse than the taliban in they eyes of the locals. It appears some Aussie units were the terrorists. 10. I learned a lot about rules of engagement and the whole sh!tload of rules and regs. We risked all our reputation on fighting a BS war against goat herders and mountain men. We lost. How the fark could anyone wage a real war with all that crap to consider?Oh hang on let's not go there in the first place, that would be a good start. That’s all i got for now. Beno I agree 100% with everything you've stated! I could add a ton more from personal experience due to a thirty year plus "accidental" association with many "SF" personnel and their culture both past and present from around the Globe. However I'm not sure it will be very positive for either myself or the Defence community! I've been biting my tongue for days now wondering if and when the topic was going to land here!
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Post by SA Hunter on Mar 1, 2021 18:44:25 GMT 10
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Post by spinifex on Mar 1, 2021 19:19:17 GMT 10
An airforce pilot can bomb a hospital full of women and children and no one much cares about prosecuting anyone.
I wonder why that is?
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Post by Stealth on Mar 2, 2021 8:25:44 GMT 10
I would hazard a guess that it's because it costs a LOT of money to drop a bomb on folks from above. There wouldn't be only one person making that decision. A lone digger (or group of diggers) who make that choice are doing it on their own but a whole building is a lot of people and a lot of decision making. Even if it was the wrong decision. I'm not saying that I think nuking a building full of non-combatants is ok, far from it. But it's not just a bloke in a field making the decision to put a round into a civilian. They made that choice themselves without any oversight. If there had been I'm almost certain we'd never have heard of it. Or if we did, it'd be a vastly reduced version of the story.
But also, I'd guess that when stories like that come out, there's almost never a face or a name to the person that pushed the button. Pushing that button seems to be such a large process that by the time it happens the pilot couldn't be blamed for all of those choices. They can do it, or not. But at the end of the day that process is going to happen at some point whether they're the ones to do it or the next pilot is, because the choice has been made. A digger can choose to kill that unarmed civilian or not, and it's entirely HIS choice. And I think that's where the problem lies. At least, that's the way it seems to me.
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