bug
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Post by bug on Sept 22, 2022 9:53:37 GMT 10
Apple got caught out purposely making older models of phone slower with firmware updates to "encourage" the user to upgrade to the latest model Isn't that the exact opposite of this discussion here though. Not getting 'upgrades' should not be a problem and should never disable a phone, let alone a vehicle.
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Post by Joey on Sept 22, 2022 10:25:24 GMT 10
Dunno, what would be interesting to see is how tesla will do its data dump in rural areas where mobile signal is sketchy at best and with telstra turning off their 3g gear soon leaving only 4/5g. I've got 5g in most areas of my small town, but when I go out to the mines sites, most only have 3g coverage because telstra doesn't care about upgrading their towers in rural areas. So much so that a bit over a year ago, telstra "upgraded" a lot of their towers by lowering the signal power output to save a few bucks on their electricity bills in running the towers. It was really noticeable for my job at the time, as where our crib hut was, went from 2bar 4g average down to 2-3 bars of 3g which was not enough for us to upload all our daily reports when the nearest tower was only 2km as the crow flies.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Sept 23, 2022 4:03:30 GMT 10
Being the SOB some profess I am.. I still thought this was funny.... Until it happens.. You know it is bound to come true someday...
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Sept 23, 2022 8:33:26 GMT 10
there are two seperate things here that are getting confused as the same thing; IoT and EV use.
everything is becoming connected to the internet, not just tesla, but everything. Its interesting to see how the problem will be solved for connectivity in remote areas. possibly starlink or another system. the IoT is a massive vulnerability, particularly for the developed west, as security of systems is never the priority in design. when russia shut Ukraine's power down a few years back it was bad for them, but it would be a nightmare for us.
As for EVs, I dont see why management will be different from other battery devices. you adapt to its life. its the same as not refueling an ICE vehicle. I dont see the same hysterics about their phone not being charged over their car not being charged. maybe you could get a ICE phone or torch to ease the anxiety of it not being charged... see how ridiculous that arguement is? more problems to solve, more opportunities for clever, entrepreneurial people to shape the world.
Its funny how some people see it as a personal attack that EVs are threatening their fossil fuel lifestyle. if you take a more arial view, isnt being able to create, store and use your own energy better for preppers than the massive logistics chains with dictators and oligarchs on one end, and massive profit driven companies on the other? health and environmental issues aside, its a clearly better prepper option, even if you had to adapt in some way (the most usefull prepper trait).
Reading all the EV doom and gloom from this thread makes me think that not many here are prepared. Not many can shift to a coming change to society. Furthermore, there is active resistance to change and a negative outlook. Its not the big that eat the small, its the fast that eat the slow.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 23, 2022 8:50:52 GMT 10
Musk owns Tesla and Starlink satellite system with over 2,500 already in orbit. He has no need for Telstra or any terrestrial networks to "spy" on his cars.
"Not many can shift to a coming change to society. "
So true, and not just with ICE's being banned, but society as a whole, with the collapse of the money system, food production, interfering with the weather, as has been done for many years, and the imminent collapse of society as a whole. Most wont survive, and even preppers are going to find it difficult, as its more than having a couple of shipping containers full of food, water and toilet paper. A whole new mental attitude will be needed, more like, "yes I can do this". Sure, things are going to tubesteak up and fail, but you will need to adapt to thinking on the fly, and have a creative brain streak to solve the infinite number of problems that will come up WTSHTF.
Exiting times ahead, sit down, strap in and enjoy the ride, society will come out the other end, completely changed.
Who controls the money controls the world.
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norseman
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Post by norseman on Sept 23, 2022 12:46:27 GMT 10
Its funny how some people see it as a personal attack that EVs are threatening their fossil fuel lifestyle. if you take a more arial view, isnt being able to create, store and use your own energy better for preppers than the massive logistics chains with dictators and oligarchs on one end, and massive profit driven companies on the other? health and environmental issues aside, its a clearly better prepper option, even if you had to adapt in some way (the most usefull prepper trait). Reading all the EV doom and gloom from this thread makes me think that not many here are prepared. Not many can shift to a coming change to society. Furthermore, there is active resistance to change and a negative outlook. Its not the big that eat the small, its the fast that eat the slow. Mate, I love my 240v and my battery pack Chainsaws above and beyond my petrol saws! I'd love to own an Electric Quad equal in power and range as my Honda 400 petrol, I love my Rodeo Petrol 4x4 dual cab ute but I'd love to own an Electric model equal in power and range, so when can I take delivery and how much? Right now "they" are lying! For me it's not about a fossil fuel lifestyle it's about survival and right now I'm not trusting "them" to deliver anytime soon!
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Sept 23, 2022 13:33:04 GMT 10
I dont think you necessarily will get like for like replacement, but thats also where adaptation comes into it. same with battery powered chainsaws; its a different use case, but great product for what it can do.
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bug
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Post by bug on Sept 23, 2022 16:47:25 GMT 10
there are two seperate things here that are getting confused as the same thing; IoT and EV use. everything is becoming connected to the internet, not just tesla, but everything. Its interesting to see how the problem will be solved for connectivity in remote areas. possibly starlink or another system. the IoT is a massive vulnerability, particularly for the developed west, as security of systems is never the priority in design. when russia shut Ukraine's power down a few years back it was bad for them, but it would be a nightmare for us. As for EVs, I dont see why management will be different from other battery devices. you adapt to its life. its the same as not refueling an ICE vehicle. I dont see the same hysterics about their phone not being charged over their car not being charged. maybe you could get a ICE phone or torch to ease the anxiety of it not being charged... see how ridiculous that arguement is? more problems to solve, more opportunities for clever, entrepreneurial people to shape the world. Its funny how some people see it as a personal attack that EVs are threatening their fossil fuel lifestyle. if you take a more arial view, isnt being able to create, store and use your own energy better for preppers than the massive logistics chains with dictators and oligarchs on one end, and massive profit driven companies on the other? health and environmental issues aside, its a clearly better prepper option, even if you had to adapt in some way (the most usefull prepper trait). Reading all the EV doom and gloom from this thread makes me think that not many here are prepared. Not many can shift to a coming change to society. Furthermore, there is active resistance to change and a negative outlook. Its not the big that eat the small, its the fast that eat the slow. You've put it far better than I could have. Thanks. The IoT is nightmare stuff. Doesn't matter if it's an ICE or EV or your alarm clock connected to it. It has gone way too far and many of us are avoiding it like the plague and for good reason. Talking about EV vs ICE in the context of IoT is to completely miss the point. I actually like the idea mentioned above to get your ICE converted to EV if possible. Only issue pay be spare parts. I love my old car, but it's time to change. Would love to have it converted to an EV without having to go to some slimy car dealer who will lie to make a sale.
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bug
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Post by bug on Sept 23, 2022 18:01:56 GMT 10
Its funny how some people see it as a personal attack that EVs are threatening their fossil fuel lifestyle. if you take a more arial view, isnt being able to create, store and use your own energy better for preppers than the massive logistics chains with dictators and oligarchs on one end, and massive profit driven companies on the other? health and environmental issues aside, its a clearly better prepper option, even if you had to adapt in some way (the most usefull prepper trait). Reading all the EV doom and gloom from this thread makes me think that not many here are prepared. Not many can shift to a coming change to society. Furthermore, there is active resistance to change and a negative outlook. Its not the big that eat the small, its the fast that eat the slow. Mate, I love my 240v and my battery pack Chainsaws above and beyond my petrol saws! I'd love to own an Electric Quad equal in power and range as my Honda 400 petrol, I love my Rodeo Petrol 4x4 dual cab ute but I'd love to own an Electric model equal in power and range, so when can I take delivery and how much? Right now "they" are lying! For me it's not about a fossil fuel lifestyle it's about survival and right now I'm not trusting "them" to deliver anytime soon! The fossil fuel industry is just plain evil. There's no better word for it. People will often strawman about the new mines that EVs will need. Go have a look at what the oil industry has done in the Niger delta (and across much of the world). Hundreds of thousands square kilometers of land just ruined. Locals forced off their land. Fishing areas wiped out.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 23, 2022 18:21:32 GMT 10
I too love my battery powered tools, especially the grinder, but there is a place for the conventional types, such as in industrial situations where battery powered gear just doesn't have the endurance without a few dozen spare paks.
Saw the Postie in town today riding an electric powered trike, to deliver mail, and another riding an electric bike. All excellent solutions, but not for country people who have to drive 150 km to town, then wait 3 hours for the car to recharge before u can go home again.
Still looking at an electric bike conversion kit, or maybe doing it myself with what I have here.
I don't get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day.
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Sept 23, 2022 19:17:15 GMT 10
I too love my battery powered tools, especially the grinder, but there is a place for the conventional types, such as in industrial situations where battery powered gear just doesn't have the endurance without a few dozen spare paks. Saw the Postie in town today riding an electric powered trike, to deliver mail, and another riding an electric bike. All excellent solutions, but not for country people who have to drive 150 km to town, then wait 3 hours for the car to recharge before u can go home again. Still looking at an electric bike conversion kit, or maybe doing it myself with what I have here. I don't get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day. most EVs could do 300kms... but i know what you are trying to say. I think businesses will see the opportunity to charge your car for free in their carpark if you shop there, what a great way to capture your customers attention. Its a great business model, cover your carparks so customers dont get rained on or their cars baked. put solar panels and storage in. put in charge stations, run the building off solar, have emergency back up in the storage, have customers wait in your shop while charging. I dont see why it isnt being done already. as for the rural and remote areas, i would say if you are driving 150kms to town you would be spending a bit of time in town anyway. I see so many kids zooming around on ebikes. i hate it. little fat kids not even getting a sweat up. what are we doing to them? soon there should be a fairly decent second hand market for them by the number I am seeing get about.
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bug
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Post by bug on Sept 23, 2022 19:47:11 GMT 10
150km and back on one charge from your own solar/battery system should be fine. The one issue for rural users is agricultural machinery. That will need to stay ICE for a while yet.
I did an e-bike conversion a while ago. They are fantastic. The torque they produce is huge. I have a trailer that I carry firewood in, and there's no problem at all with it. You do have to be careful when you are taking off though, as I did do an unintentional wheelie a while back and got thrown off. Not great. A good thing about them is that even if the battery drops to half capacity eventually, it doesn't matter at all, since you are on a bicycle anyway.
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norseman
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Post by norseman on Sept 24, 2022 7:03:38 GMT 10
"ICE" = Internal Combustion Engine! Wow now I get it, like 16580000 plus people think I'm a total dummfook but I reckon only about half of em are right! Here I was thinking that this "ICE" was some secret new technology that was even better than an EV!
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 24, 2022 8:49:56 GMT 10
Charging facilities could also be the issue.
Consider each EV as a 50 kwh battery pack, meaning 50 kilowatt hours (plus loses) must be put back in to recharge it.
Time must enter the equation now, so if we want to charge our EV in 1 hour, we need to stuff in 50 kilowatts of power in that hour. Sounds easy. At 240 volts, 50 kw is 208 amps. A standard domestic power outlet is rated at 10 amps, a heavy duty one, 15 and industrial could be 20 amps. On 3 phase, 415 volts, 50 kw is 70 amps, a more reasonable figure.
Now, consider a million EV's active on NSW roads.
1,000,000 X 50,000 = 50,000,000,000 watts or 50,000 Mega watts.
Bayswater Power station is rated at 2,640 Megawatts (MW) Eraring is rated at 2,880 MW Liddell rated at 2,000 MW Mt Piper at 1,400 MW and Vales Point at 1,320 MW
Add them all up and u get 10,240 MW, not enough, so you start up the gas fired stations and without going into the same maths again, there is about the same amount of power available from these, most are 1 to 10 MW running off landfill gas, but some run off fuel oil or natural gas.
Then you have the Snowy Scheme and a couple of other small hydro turbines, but there is still a shortfall of 30,000 MW. Solar could contribute, but most will be charging their EV's up at night, no sun at night.
To make up for the 30,000 MW difference, using the very latest 400 watt high power solar panels, over 75,000 would be needed.
And these calcs don't allow for the existing loading on the power grid, nor the extra infrastructure that would be needed to supply over 3 X more power into the system. Then there is the mining and processing of raw materials for so many battery's, and the disposal/recycling of them at their end of life.
Its a immense tubesteak up waiting to happen.
The only way this would ever work is to go nuclear, and Australia isn't ready for that fight yet.
Let 'em ban ICE vehicles, Ive got my gasifier and lots of trees, so bring it on !
Its always possible someone could crack cold fusion, or come up with some sort of perpetual energy system, but we have to deal with technology as it exists now, not some airy fairy future developments.
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
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bug
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Post by bug on Sept 24, 2022 9:12:22 GMT 10
MWT, that equation assumes every single EV in the state goes flat at exactly the same time and tries to recharge at exactly the same time. Same scenario as every single car trying to go to the petrol station at once and with a similar (albeit fanciful) result. In reality the opposite is the case. The AEMC regards EVs as a positive due to their effect of being a distributed battery system. They do give a caveat that we must get ahead of the curve though in order to take advantage of them rather than them being a burden. Given Australia's addiction to ICE, that part of it it does not look promising. www.aemc.gov.au/news-centre/media-releases/integrating-electric-vehicles-power-system
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 24, 2022 11:53:52 GMT 10
True, but ICE vehicles can refuel quickly and in many different places at once. The specific energy in petrol is nearly 10 kwh/liter, so its an energy dense fuel, electricity isn't that easy to use, and battery's can only accept charge at a maximum rate, whereas you can usually fill your cars petrol tank at the max flow rate of the pump, and in a few minutes as well.
A quick calc.
Assume we take on 50 liters of fuel, in say 5 minutes. Thats 50 X approx 10 kw of energy, or around 500 Kw, done in a few minutes.
Electrically, to get 500 kw out in 5 minutes, you would need 60/5 = 12 X 500, or 6,000 kw, 6 mw of output. A bit impracticable.
But in designing a power system, one must design for the maximum load, as its possible it could happen. Just ask someone who has a off grid solar system and uses the microwave, then someone is using the vacuum cleaner at the same time, and dad plugs in the jug for a brew and .....it all stops as the inverter has a maximum power limit, the only way out is a bigger inverter, bigger battery's etc. Yes, there is a limit and its usually about 80 % full load for the grid.
But one must design for the maximum otherwise people will get cross when they plug in their EV and the lights go out. And I think that most will be charging when they come home from work in the evening. At present, the peak power occurs at about 6:30 pm, and depends on the season. Its true that the generation doesn't need to be at that level all the time, but the transmission system certainly must be able to cope with that peak load or else.....darkness and upset customers.
I remember in the 60's at BHP Port Kembla, Power Control having to ring the Electricity Commission to get extra generators put on line to start the Ilgner Generating set at the Slab Mill after down days.
In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 24, 2022 12:04:10 GMT 10
Air powered vehicles could be an option. qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-76498367bcfec9d682162d7cc19f4bd5-lqThe main conceptual drawback is the relatively low energy of compressed air. The AirPod is rated at 5 kW (6.7 HP), barely larger than a decent lawnmower engine. An AirPod is in the same class as a go-kart, not a passenger car. AirPod needs relatively flat terrain. Any slopes must be very gentle. AirPod doesn’t run on ordinary compressed air such as you would put in a tire; it requires 5000 PSI. A typical SCUBA tank goes to 3500 PSI; some exceed 4000, so this is not a crazy or unsafe amount of pressure. A 5000 PSI compressor can be purchased on Amazon for a few hundred dollars; it is about the size of a residential air conditioning unit and runs on ordinary 120 volts. A single compressor could serve an entire community. The three-wheel, three-seat AirPod is rated for a range of 137 miles (220 km) at speeds up to 43 MPH (70 km/h). It weighs 485 pounds (220 kg) and can refill in 1.5 minutes (all according to MDI). Unfortunately, the AirPod is perpetually delayed, and may never see actual production. If it did, though, it would be an attractive option for LSVs, and there are millions of LSVs in operation. It is a diverse and thriving marketplace. If MDI/Tata can succeed in bringing such a vehicle to market, they will have no problem finding customers. Since Tata is an Indian company, they likely have an Indian/Asian customer base in mind. Tata does not sell cars in the West, so I would not expect an AirPod to be generally available in North America. Coal and oil originally came from the suns energy on organisms, so I suppose that coal and oil could be classed as renewables as the sun is still there. (last time I looked anyway !) “Every landing that you walk away from is a good landing. If you can reuse the plane, it was a great landing.” ~ David Samson
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Sept 24, 2022 14:51:44 GMT 10
"ICE" = Internal Combustion Engine! Wow now I get it, like 16580000 plus people think I'm a total dummfook but I reckon only about half of em are right! Here I was thinking that this "ICE" was some secret new technology that was even better than an EV! People from Western Sydney have a different understanding of ICE
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bug
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Post by bug on Sept 24, 2022 17:43:58 GMT 10
If a non-existant scenario is what it takes to support a standpoint, then that standpoint is wrong.
In no way does this kind of thing suggest that ICE vehicles should be banned. Far from it. But what becomes quickly apparant from these discussions is that practically every common criticism of EVs is either demonstrably false, or if a genuine drawback, there's a corresponding equal or worse drawback with ICE vehicles. There are some exceptions (farm machinery, international shipping), but as to the car sitting in our collective driveways, none of the commonly held criticisms can stand up to scrutiny.
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rastus
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Post by rastus on Sept 24, 2022 17:55:17 GMT 10
I can see where this is going to go. Already in Japan, before you can own a car, you have to prove you have off street parking. Car ownership will be drowned in red tape, fees and taxes before anyone will acknowledge that EV's aren't a perfect solution for all.
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