starmade
Junior Member
Posts: 28
Likes: 19
|
Post by starmade on Nov 12, 2016 22:22:06 GMT 10
Our families survived wars natural disasters etc that's why we are here. I have been thinking that there are individual on the spot decisions that contributed to survival. I can say the characteristics of flexibility, keeping a cool head contributed to my family's survival. My Grandfather had four underage sons when ww2 broke out. He made in my mind an extraordinary decision. He negotiated with the Germans to volunteer to a labour camp with the boys as long as they could stay together and he would be personally in charge of them and come home once a year. At home my Grandmother was alone but took in a child girl pretending she was theirs. She had the village support network, they all survived. Different world now when/if trouble comes, what lessons will we have learnt from our ancestors?
|
|
paranoia
Senior Member
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 1,252
Email: para@ausprep.org
|
Post by paranoia on Nov 12, 2016 22:50:03 GMT 10
We often hear the quick decisions and 'cool heads'. We don't hear of those who took the other path because they did not live to tell the tale.
When it comes down to a personal level for me, I can see a lot of 'lessons' passed down from those times. These will all be different depending on where your family was at the time and what was needed to get through that particular adversity. Both sides of my family were German and there's a distinct culture that comes with that.
The survival traits I see in myself that have clear pathways through my family are; secrecy, stoicism, mistrust of authority and any form of citizen tracking/databases. Also the importance of slow, calculated and planned out actions.
So in other words; Don't panic, hide everything and make contingencies for all things.
|
|
|
Post by SA Hunter on Nov 12, 2016 23:16:51 GMT 10
My dad & his parents were taken from Russia into a German camp during WW2. They survived to liberation. He never talks about it, not even a hint. They survived, and were one of the lucky few who stayed together as a family.
My aim is somewhat the same, whatever happens, as a family we will survive.
|
|
starmade
Junior Member
Posts: 28
Likes: 19
|
Post by starmade on Nov 12, 2016 23:43:49 GMT 10
Yeah 3/4 German myself😀but have gotten over nationalistic ideas and all the other usuals. Totally agree with off the radar managing of ones affairs. Currently reading some old posts, learning a lot. Actually I'm very new to saying anything at all on the internet
|
|
paranoia
Senior Member
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 1,252
Email: para@ausprep.org
|
Post by paranoia on Nov 13, 2016 0:06:30 GMT 10
Yeah 3/4 German myself😀but have gotten over nationalistic ideas and all the other usuals. Totally agree with off the radar managing of ones affairs. Currently reading some old posts, learning a lot. Actually I'm very new to saying anything at all on the internet IMO, its generally fine so long as you keep personal details vague and never show your entire hand.
I think there's a level of secrecy we need to drop in order to reach out to people. These friends & allies will be far more valuable in the long run over extreme secrecy. Just need to run the cost/benefit for yourself.
|
|
shinester
Senior Member
China's white trash
Posts: 3,119
Likes: 3,578
Email: shiny@ausprep.org
|
Post by shinester on Nov 13, 2016 13:44:12 GMT 10
In a general sense and it's an incredibly broad topic, I look at history a LOT for insights into what issues might or might not come, how people coped, what worked, what didn't and how people acted. History has taught me that a major calamity is highly unlikely, yet not impossible. History has shown that we can handle a lot, if we're prepared for hardship. Perhaps the most difficult part is getting information from those who were within austere environments, many trying to forget. Some highlights came from info such as the Siege of Sarajevo, Stalingrad, Fall of the Roman Empire, floods, cyclones, earthquakes, economic collapses [Venuzwala now and Argentina] and so on. Looking at the psychology of people, such as the recent political loss and the violence, the BLM escalation and then there's also fake scenarios through fiction of various types, though of course that's less reliable than actuality.
|
|
spatial
Senior Member
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 1,509
Member is Online
|
Post by spatial on Nov 13, 2016 18:31:27 GMT 10
In a general sense and it's an incredibly broad topic, I look at history a LOT for insights into what issues might or might not come, how people coped, what worked, what didn't and how people acted. History has taught me that a major calamity is highly unlikely, yet not impossible. History has shown that we can handle a lot, if we're prepared for hardship. Perhaps the most difficult part is getting information from those who were within austere environments, many trying to forget. Some highlights came from info such as the Siege of Sarajevo, Stalingrad, Fall of the Roman Empire, floods, cyclones, earthquakes, economic collapses [Venuzwala now and Argentina] and so on. Looking at the psychology of people, such as the recent political loss and the violence, the BLM escalation and then there's also fake scenarios through fiction of various types, though of course that's less reliable than actuality. The worlds population has a very different profile especially in the west. Aging population and most people live on a handful of drugs each day for some or other ailment. World food security is the worst it has ever been in History. Less people on the land less people farming and most people with zero farming skills, most have less than a week food supply in house. Level of physical fitness is bad over half of western world is obese, many with drug dependencies like caffeine, nicotine, alcohol and the hardcore substances. People will totally freak out when the aircon goes off, they have to drink unchlorinated water, the wifi is off (during the April 2015 storms that was one of the biggest complaints people had can't connect to the internet), we are a generation of entitlement the gov must do something. If you do a review of the big storms in the US like Katrina and more recently Sandy that hit New York. After 2 day the people were throwing stones at rescue workers and police who were evacuating a hospital (as the basement of the hospital flooded and there was no power) demanding heating for their houses as they were cold, could not give a dam about the sic in the hospital. Half the population lives on welfare and if the system goes down they immediately go insane and start tearing the city down. Humanity no longer exist so that is something else to be prepared for. The good thing is if it goes full mad max scenario then most will be gone in a month and the survivors can rebuild. I thought of printing fake pamphlet like the government has set up refugee camp with running water and food at Newcastle and distribute it across the neighborhood - people will cling to any form of hope even if they suspect it to be false. It would clear out the neighborhood and once they get to Newcastle it is unlikely they will be able to get back due to fuel shortage. Ok that is devious plan AB. Plans go from A-Z then AA -AZ so it is plan 28 quiet high up on my list of things to do.... ...
|
|
starmade
Junior Member
Posts: 28
Likes: 19
|
Post by starmade on Nov 13, 2016 21:16:12 GMT 10
It's hard for the survivors to tell their stories, they remember and have the guilt of surviving with or without reason. I asked a lot of questions wanting to know. A lot of them go totally undetected as Heroes because they are old and use their laying low tactics on us now. I've been amazed at the stories in the aftermath of Katrina. Inhuman.
|
|
shinester
Senior Member
China's white trash
Posts: 3,119
Likes: 3,578
Email: shiny@ausprep.org
|
Post by shinester on Nov 14, 2016 2:43:45 GMT 10
The worlds population has a very different profile especially in the west. Aging population and most people live on a handful of drugs each day for some or other ailment. World food security is the worst it has ever been in History. Less people on the land less people farming and most people with zero farming skills, most have less than a week food supply in house. Level of physical fitness is bad over half of western world is obese, many with drug dependencies like caffeine, nicotine, alcohol and the hardcore substances. People will totally freak out when the aircon goes off, they have to drink unchlorinated water, the wifi is off (during the April 2015 storms that was one of the biggest complaints people had can't connect to the internet), we are a generation of entitlement the gov must do something. If you do a review of the big storms in the US like Katrina and more recently Sandy that hit New York. After 2 day the people were throwing stones at rescue workers and police who were evacuating a hospital (as the basement of the hospital flooded and there was no power) demanding heating for their houses as they were cold, could not give a dam about the sic in the hospital. Half the population lives on welfare and if the system goes down they immediately go insane and start tearing the city down. Ha, being obese and inactive [slow metabolism] in a survival situation is excellent, 10kgs is about 40 days of food. You will need salts, particularly potassium, and vitamins and minerals but it does make survival more likely. I would agree that people don't have the food production skills and if such an event such as fuel shortages happened there might be a lot of people changing jobs as farm laborers, since most else would be redundant. In terms of addition, escapes help mitigate underlying issues that are unresolved, of course they do nothing for the underlying issue other than distract from it. People go years or lifetimes without taking things within them on somewhat successfully, albeit a reduced experience of life at least from my experience with people as a therapist, though never the less that's how they roll. In terms of such escapes not being available, well indeed this can bring out psychotic episodes, suicide, violence in people who are now forced to look within without the distractions of the modern world and don't have the tools to cope. For most the stress of the situation and perhaps where to get food will override the historic trauma and so attention will probably go to obtaining the necessities, aka Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Regarding welfare, probably, many people have been institutionalized about welfare and don't see it as the 'charity' it is supposed to be. As with any change, people would have to process it, that process is the same as any loss, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I've highlighted the one you've highlighted. Most will progress through them all. Those who have had less change/challenge/loss in their life take longer to get through [it varies on topic also] the stages. People can very well get stuck also or repress their feelings, though that's another topic all together. The reason I mention it is because it ties into the way people respond to events. The loss of the internet, will indeed induce that process within people, as would power going down etc. Humanity is alive and well, kindness and so on everywhere. The flipside on that is an increasing level of distrust between people, there's various reasons for this and a part of it could be because of the lack of difficulty so no need for outside assistance [with the bonds and friendships that brings] and having, things are the easiest they have ever been, and going with the theme from above, ability to cope with 'loss'. This is why people flip out when they realize [ anger] though it will progress towards acceptance for most. In terms of a month, people will live for much longer due to being overweight as I previously mentioned. That's what it's meant for, our body stores when the sun shines so we can live through the winter and early spring famine. I 'very' much like your Psywar idea, though it does pose some rather difficult ethical issues and it's one I hadn't even began to contemplate.
|
|
grumble
Senior Member
Posts: 455
Likes: 777
|
Post by grumble on Nov 14, 2016 12:32:56 GMT 10
I think the question is How do you make those choices and live with them
my parents had plenty of brutal stories of making choices but it was more about what they could live with
Myself I have encountered a situation where I had to make choices that had long term ramifications that I have lived with and this is an irreversible path that we take once we make a cold but calculated decision on who to help and who we don't
my situation was a classic text book of situational triage to dangerous dead Dying saveable
I had the misfortune of being 1st on scene of a single vehicle crash involving a family of 5
Even though I was trained in level 3 1st aid and remote area 1st aid due to the fact part of my job at the time was mine rescue it still never fully prepares you for actually being the person that has to make that call on who you can save and who you can't I never knew how hard it would be to make the call and say to yourself you can't help that person or that person in the real world with real people begging you for help or to help their daughter
To me these sort of situation will probably bring about the demise of more people then anything else
Just knowing when to let people die and living with it will be something any survivors will have to deal with at some point
|
|
|
Post by Joey on Nov 14, 2016 14:34:48 GMT 10
Well I'm glad to say that I'm not addicted to anything. Don't drink, don't take drugs (legal or otherwise) don't drink caffeine (gave up coke 15yrs ago next month) and only have lemonade on special occasions like dinner out with family. Although I am a tubby guts, my exercise is limited due to lower back injury and a lot of types of exercise the physio has told me to avoid. But we make do with what we've got to work with. All I can see to do of do what we can to prepare ourselves. I drive a fair part to get to and from work at the mine and occasionally I like to pass that time coming up with scenarios and run through step by step what I would do if I was there so in my subconscious I have pre-made plans on what's going to happen so I can just get in and go.
|
|
spatial
Senior Member
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 1,509
Member is Online
|
Post by spatial on Nov 14, 2016 17:25:21 GMT 10
I 'very' much like your Psywar idea, though it does pose some rather difficult ethical issues and it's one I hadn't even began to contemplate. Agree humanity is still there but most people flip too quickly if under stress. The most prescribed pharmaceuticals are antibiotics, birth control, and antidepressants. There are so many that will just freak out when the drugs run out. The only point I was trying to make was that we are far more vulnerable or wingers than previous generations. The events around Sandy and Katrina storms show total disintegration of society happened very quickly - 50years ago one would not of seen that. As to Psywar that was just a thought I had one day and now have put it out there just to stir thing up a bit . I doubt I could do such a thing. If the neighbors start raiding my veg garden - it might end up like that. I told my wife to double seed storage as will prob have to make the decision to let the veg and herb garden get destroyed and then have to rebuild after all the zombies (those will no preps = walking dead) have moved on. Or there will be a very high body count with lots of holes in my back wall.. LOL it has been many years since I have heard 'maslow hierarchy of needs' quoted.... Is wifi access a need that needs to be added?
|
|
|
Post by Joey on Nov 14, 2016 19:09:09 GMT 10
Agree humanity is still there but most people flip too quickly if under stress. The most prescribed pharmaceuticals are antibiotics, birth control, and antidepressants. There are so many that will just freak out when the drugs run out. We all know that the first things to be raided in a grid down or WROL will be alcohol, chemists and cigarettes. And once all of these are consumed everything will melt down
|
|
shinester
Senior Member
China's white trash
Posts: 3,119
Likes: 3,578
Email: shiny@ausprep.org
|
Post by shinester on Nov 14, 2016 19:43:08 GMT 10
I think the question is How do you make those choices and live with them my parents had plenty of brutal stories of making choices but it was more about what they could live with Myself I have encountered a situation where I had to make choices that had long term ramifications that I have lived with and this is an irreversible path that we take once we make a cold but calculated decision on who to help and who we don't my situation was a classic text book of situational triage to dangerous dead Dying saveable I had the misfortune of being 1st on scene of a single vehicle crash involving a family of 5 Even though I was trained in level 3 1st aid and remote area 1st aid due to the fact part of my job at the time was mine rescue it still never fully prepares you for actually being the person that has to make that call on who you can save and who you can't I never knew how hard it would be to make the call and say to yourself you can't help that person or that person in the real world with real people begging you for help or to help their daughter To me these sort of situation will probably bring about the demise of more people then anything else Just knowing when to let people die and living with it will be something any survivors will have to deal with at some point Thanks for your message bud, heartfelt, tough yet helpful. Hopefully you got some debriefing with that tragic scene you had to deal with too. I regularly face people [3-4 a year] who are suicidal, the last one right on the edge one of the closest I have seen. Being able to recognize the deceitful and desperate is also important, I knew he wasn't likely to pay. I did help him knowing this and he owes me a fair few coin. I did it because I chose to though I also recognize that I didn't have to and he probably would have been jacked up on drugs for the rest of his life to stop him working out those internal issues. I do hold him accountable for his actions, not myself and i think it's important to be able to do so. The message here is that some desperate people will do very very bad things and at the same time it's not 'all'. I have had people in similar desperate situations who have honored their agreement without issue. It is a metaphor, we're not talking about starvation here, though it's also about the character of the person in front of you. Some are very likely to be 'immoral' some are less likely to be and some would rather starve than be immoral. Similarly the same sorts of character will take generosity and thank you for a lifetime or forget you in a second. Looking at the people around you now, at who is there for you when stressed is a useful idea. Who will abandon you, who will be loyal and if you share food do anything they can to help you out. Unless you're experienced in dealing with people under stress you might not be aware of their character, law enforcement, perhaps business people, or therapists are some that come to mind that have probably seen enough to instinctively pick up on character and even then, the best way is to know the person, see them over years of ups and downs to see how they are towards loyalty and respect towards others, well at least until they are not shown respect and I would hope they give it to them [aka have moxie]. My old test for dating is how the girl treats everyone else as a way of knowing her character. Who you save might indeed be who you can, though I think another aspect would be who you 'want' to save if able. I sure can't save everyone, I would have trouble seeing my neighbors kids starve and at the same time she's horrid, untrustworthy and spends half the time yelling at her kids. It's not pleasant of course and she's ultimately a liability. In terms of living with your decisions, a clear sense of morality helps a great deal. It's something I lean on with people professionally because people are often self guilting themselves for other people's decisions and actions. If people are starving and you are not, then it was 'their' choice to put their faith in a system running with little to no redundancy. People are responsible for their actions. As above, you can 'chose' to help out, though there's no moral obligation to and it can come with a great cost. I probably will because it's my nature to, though I would try to make sure of the character of the person as I have mentioned above, if you like a 'win-win'. Of course if you steal food from hungry people, then you are responsible for that, that is you're acting immorally. You might do it anyway knowing the circumstances and the cost and be in great pain emotionally. Processing such actions is very difficult and most people simply lie to themselves or spend years trying to trick themselves into justification. It's not a good road to be on. Atonement the solution and a path depending on the severity. Now this is the case for most of us, some of us might be sociopathic in inclination. That's not to say they are 'bad' rather they don't have the same emotional guilt, being able to do bad things without emotional costs. They usually know they can, and whilst guided by a desire to look and act normal, they'll abandon that at a drop of a hat. They are part of the spectrum, so understand morality, simply it's not having actions that are hypocritical. If you have to, then know the cost and start paying it back as you can and you might just feel atonement for your desperate actions at some point, you might not, forgetting will work in the short term and the longer term it will eat away at you, processing as soon as you can is the healthiest choice. I can very much agree with your first paragraph. Stir away, though your idea has merit and potentiality for safety. As already noted it would also leave myself at least with a sense of knowing I did wrong to a lot of people, never the less perspectives are important, someone might do the same to me and understanding it from both sides helps, eg 1st War in Iraq because they had WOMs! oh wait, psywar. Wifi and more specifically internet is as important as water, clearly.
|
|
starmade
Junior Member
Posts: 28
Likes: 19
|
Post by starmade on Nov 15, 2016 16:12:02 GMT 10
Scenario- having a swim in a lake, some distance away a person clearly in trouble. One swims over to investigate/ help. Person totally hysterical climbing all over and seems super strong pushing one under. We could try to knock them out and drag to shore. In this circumstance the rescuer feels they only have enough strength to untangle oneself and get to shore. Drawing a conclusion, person receiving help in a particular circumstance depends largely on them. The rescuer assesses the risk. This is fictitious, but I have heard of people usually family members drowning in similar circumstances. Just felt the philosophy of the choices is somewhat similar to a well prepared individual or group.
|
|
|
Post by ziggysdad on Nov 15, 2016 19:43:31 GMT 10
Scenario- having a swim in a lake, some distance away a person clearly in trouble. One swims over to investigate/ help. Person totally hysterical climbing all over and seems super strong pushing one under. We could try to knock them out and drag to shore. In this circumstance the rescuer feels they only have enough strength to untangle oneself and get to shore. Drawing a conclusion, person receiving help in a particular circumstance depends largely on them. The rescuer assesses the risk. This is fictitious, but I have heard of people usually family members drowning in similar circumstances. Just felt the philosophy of the choices is somewhat similar to a well prepared individual or group. You've just described a typical 'aquatic victim instead of rescuer syndrome'. I'm a strong swimmer, so I would try to offer assistance, but I know from past experience that a much smaller person can drag a bigger/stronger person underwater in this type of scenario. If at all possible I would be trying to grab a buoy or some kind of float on the way to the victim. That failing, try to talk to the victim before you get within arms length. I wear a long sleeve rash guard whenever I swim. By removing it and tossing one end to the victim you buy yourself six feet of buffer space. Playing water polo, I've found the best way to get someone to let go of you who is trying to push you under is to dunk them a few times Knocking the person out carries risk - if anything happens to them at that point you could be held liable. Plus, it is hard to knock someone out when you are being pushed underwater. At that point you are better off extricating yourself and swimming away to try to get help.
|
|
spatial
Senior Member
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 1,509
Member is Online
|
Post by spatial on Nov 15, 2016 20:29:11 GMT 10
Scenario- having a swim in a lake, some distance away a person clearly in trouble. One swims over to investigate/ help. Person totally hysterical climbing all over and seems super strong pushing one under. We could try to knock them out and drag to shore. In this circumstance the rescuer feels they only have enough strength to untangle oneself and get to shore. Drawing a conclusion, person receiving help in a particular circumstance depends largely on them. The rescuer assesses the risk. This is fictitious, but I have heard of people usually family members drowning in similar circumstances. Just felt the philosophy of the choices is somewhat similar to a well prepared individual or group. In the 18th century the advice was to let a person drowning tire themselves out to the point they are completely exhaust and start swallowing water then go and help them. But that is not your point, in a SHTF scenario people will panic and do stupid things, best let them starve a bit for a few weeks till they come to their senses prior to helping them. They will then be more appreciative and cooperative.
|
|